dollsome: (rh + guy/marian [quiet])
dollsome ([personal profile] dollsome) wrote2007-12-31 05:49 pm
Entry tags:

i'll never let go, ship.

This got kind of . . . excessive and crazy. When I started off with it, I wanted to have everything all orderly, with a section of Marian analysis and a set of Guy analysis for each scene, but then it just kind of . . . exploded into something not remotely neat or organized. So good luck, pals!



All right. So, I’ve made it through the grieving process. I’ve had one sleepless, tormented night. I’ve gone a whole day feeling nauseous, finding myself inspired to burst into tears by random things like cups of tea and my dog looking at me funny. I’ve contemplated suing Dominic Minghella for emotional damage. I’ve deleted all my Guy/Marian icons in a fit of grief, only to realize that they are far too pretty to be absent from my userpics page and putting up new ones. And now, damn it, I have realized that a little thing like one half of my ship killing the other one sure as hell isn’t going to make me forsake one of my most beloved OTPs of all time.

And then, and only then, did I slip into analysis mode – and realize that, actually, this can be made to work. The thing that ruined me about the finale, more than anything else, was that Guy and Marian’s interaction in it seemed to completely negate every single thing that’s happened between them this season, to take all the tender and genuine moments and say, ‘Hah! Just kidding, suckers!’ The idea that none of the stuff that had made me burst into tears of disbelieving joy, leap around my apartment harassing my very beleaguered roommate with an incoherent and squealy play-by-play of their interaction, and daydream about them during boring-as-all Anthropology lectures had actually been real (er, in the fictional sense) or meant anything? We are talking major betrayed-type feelings here, people. Dominic Minghella & Co. were lucky I was not in the same room with them and wielding a broadsword, is what I’m saying.

But then, as I was lying in bed last night about to fall asleep, I for some reason caught myself contemplating the Guy/Marian stuff in the finale in relation to “A Thing Or Two About Loyalty”, a.k.a. The Episode That Will Always Break My Brain With Its Many Levels of Complexity and Downright Greatness. Episode summary, in brief: Marian recognizes some humanity in Guy (namely, his concern over Lambert) and as a result winds up genuinely trusting him; Guy finds, though, that he cannot bring himself to go against the Sheriff; once she finds this out, Marian is left feeling disappointed in Guy, which quickly transforms into anger – both at Guy for betraying her, and at herself for beginning to trust him.

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I think that 2x10 through 2x13 can be viewed as very much the same journey for their relationship as “A Thing Or Two About Loyalty” was, only this time on a much grander scale. We see Guy and Marian connect in a way that’s genuine and compassionate and powerful, only to have them torn apart when Guy is lured back by the Sheriff – as a result, Marian completely closes herself off to him, furious both at his weakness for the Sheriff and that she let herself fall for the idea that he might be capable of being a good man.

Of course, all of this is just ridiculously in-depth fangirly analysis, but I’m definitely going to cling to it anyway, because I need it to live on er, well, because.

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In their first scene together in 2x12, they seem to be getting along as well as they were at the end of 2x11 – they exchange smiles, and Guy seems much more relaxed than usual – but it’s all shot to hell pretty quickly. The seeds of what will ultimately cause their relationship to unravel are planted right away here –

From Marian’s Perspective:
-After recent events, where Guy has stood by her side to protect Nottingham against Prince John’s army and saved her despite discovering that she’s been directly thwarting his political cause for years, the information that he’s going to kill the king – a conclusion we learn that she draws immediately – is sort of a slap in the face. It directly contradicts all of the good things he’s done that have been winning her over, the notion that he is truly capable of being redeemed, that he’s found more important things than politics and power.

-The mention of Robin, too, brings up the one obstacle that still stands between Guy and Marian even after 2x11. Marian’s obviously aware that finding out about her relationship with Robin is the one thing that Guy really will not be able to endure, and she keeps it a secret to protect both him and herself.

From Guy’s Perspective:
-His willingness to go and kill the king obviously has a lot to do with the idea that, once he really and truly has power and position, he and Marian will be able to get married and live happily ever after. In spite of everything, he just cannot seem to shake the belief that to truly gain her heart, he has to make something of himself in terms of politics and power first.

-She gives him her word that she won’t do anything reckless or stupid – like, say, kill the Sheriff – while he’s away, an assurance that he won’t have to worry about her.

-Here, too, we see Guy’s suspicions about her relationship with Robin beginning to emerge.


So, then, once Marian tries to kill the Sheriff and gets caught—

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Marian:
-Is upset with Guy that he’d go along with trying to kill the king.

-Add to the mix that Guy rather easily and quickly tells the Sheriff that Marian was the Nightwatchman – an action which, in her eyes, immediately counteracts the kind, brave thing he’d done for her.

Guy:
-Has to deal with the fact that Marian expressly went against her promise to him that she wouldn’t do anything – and not only did she not keep it, she did the worst imaginable thing: she tried to kill the Sheriff. Very soon after Guy has risked his standing with the Sheriff, has gone against the man who essentially controls his life, all to save Marian, she goes and makes an attempt to kill the Sheriff. It’s essentially one big “screw you” to Guy’s scheme to protect her from being found out as the Nightwatchman – after the huge sacrifice he made for her, she just goes and sets herself up to get killed by the Sheriff all over again, like Guy’s actions meant nothing to her.


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So now on both sides, we’ve got them each feeling equally betrayed by and disappointed in each other. That only worsens on Marian’s side when she finds out that Guy did go to the Holy Land to try to kill the king – apparently, she had genuinely believed it for a long, long time when Guy told her that that wasn’t the case back in 1x13. This only strengthens her view of him as being treasonous and every bit the Sheriff’s man.


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I think, too, that when Marian finds out that Robin is “dead” from the Sheriff, it obviously only serves to make her more upset – she’s lost the love of her life, and not only that, but Guy is choosing to stand by this man who is responsible for Robin’s death. All of the redemptive qualities Guy has shown in 2x10 and 2x11 have been all but canceled out right now. The cherry on top is that Guy is doing nothing to help her: he’s allowing her to be chained in a stable and treated appallingly without stepping in to intercede, in spite of how much he apparently ‘loves’ her. By this point, I think everything that’s good in him has really just begun to fade away in Marian’s eyes.


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And then, my very favourite scene of the whole episode – Guy comes to her in the stable at night, and they just look at each other before being interrupted by Allan. I just love the resonance of this moment. I’m completely biased, obviously, but I think that we really do feel them connect here, and that both of them seem to silently be asking the other, “Why have you done this to me?” It’s the last moment of true connection that I think we ever really see between them, and I think it’s so fitting that it doesn’t involve any words – at this point, everything they say to each other is a manipulation, a lie, a betrayal, an affirmation that their loyalty doesn’t belong to each other and never can. And so, for this little moment, they’re just quiet.

This is immediately followed up by Guy asking Allan if Marian and Robin are together – and Armitage, of course, just beautifully shows how devastating this idea is to Guy; it isn’t really menacing, even, just desperate and sad. Allan’s answer only serves to strengthen his suspicion. So now we also get to throw in the mix the fact that Guy is beginning to question every single thing that’s ever happened between him and Marian, every moment that has ever given him hope with her.

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And then we’ve got Guy’s dream, where Marian says, “I should’ve let you look after me, Guy. I should’ve let you.” I think this really reveals just how betrayed and upset he feels that Marian didn’t just accept his protection after 2x11 – if she had kept her word that she wasn’t going to do anything (because Guy did clearly think he was protecting her with that action), she would be back in the castle while he, the Sheriff, and Allan went to the Holy Land. And in his mind, he would have come home, finally as powerful and accomplished as he’s always felt he needed to be, and they would have gotten married. Instead, Marian had gone against him and gotten herself taken prisoner, and now everything’s a mess.

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And now, into 2x13!

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I think that by now, Guy and Marian’s relationship is in worse shape than it’s ever been before. Neither of them trust the other, both of them are incredibly disappointed in each other and on completely opposite sides. He hasn’t shown much compassion at all at the fact that she’s being chained in a room as a prisoner, presumably for a somewhat lengthy stretch of time. I think at this point, they’re really just completely lost to each other.

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Which makes Marian’s proposal an insult, almost, more than anything. I think that before, there was always something – a spark, an attraction, that inherent tension between them – but here, I think Marian’s just so weary, and although she says all the right words, there’s nothing behind it, and Guy senses that. I think he can also draw the assumption that Robin’s death can be connected to the fact that suddenly she’s saying she’ll marry him willingly. Marian, at this point, has lost everything, and she’s gone into calculating survival mode here – she’s not stirred by him, not anymore. I think it’s interesting to contrast this scene with the one in 2x03 – in both of them, she reaches out, offers herself to him, but the 2x03 scene is so characterized by heat and intimacy and desire, and this one’s completely the opposite, with everything sparse and cold. (Juxtaposing the lighting in both scenes is quite interesting.)

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I still have trouble making sense of his declaration that he’ll take her by force. It’s obvious that he doesn’t want her in the same way that he had – he doesn’t want her to love him, he doesn’t want her to see that he’s capable of truly loving her. For all his desperation, he’s never forced her before, because he has always wanted her to be the one to make the choice, so that way he can believe that she cares for him. The man’s proposed to her a number of times throughout the series, but even in the height of his desperation, it’s always been a question. I suppose the one conclusion that I can really draw from that is that he’s finally just given up on her, and he reacts by turning violent and cold: he’s become the Sheriff’s man more than ever. This part reminds me of in 2x01, when Guy asks the Sheriff if he ought to use force if Marian and her father won’t come along quietly, and the Sheriff responds by telling him to use force anyway.

And so Guy really and truly, irrevocably betrays Marian, and it’s like “A Thing or Two About Loyalty” heightened about tenfold. I think that at this point, she just completely lets go of him – loathes him, despises him for having made her feel for him only to turn out like this. Having the Sheriff come and tell her that Guy’s chosen him over her, and rub it in by asking whether she’s disappointed in Guy, really just puts an end to everything she’s ever let herself feel.


Which brings us to the last scene. (dun dun DUNNN.)

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I think it’s incredibly fitting the way this is staged, with the king in between them and Guy and Marian on either side. It’s a physical manifestation of the thing that has always stood between them: no matter what, they have always been on opposite sides, their loyalties have always been directly conflicting, and this is the ultimate verification of that – and the thing is, by this point, they’ve lost the shades of grey that have always, always defined their relationship. She genuinely does not think that he’s capable of goodness or love anymore; he
just wants her for the sake of possessing her.

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I think that in this scene, Marian’s incredibly similar to the way she was in the scene where she’s down on the floor in 2x11 – there’s that same sense of having lost everything, leading her to finally just abandon manipulation in favour of brutal honesty. I think Guy’s so far gone in her eyes here, and she’s so bitter toward him, and that’s why she laughs during the scene. There’s nothing left between them, no reason to tiptoe around him or manipulate him or even try to spare him from the truth; the man she cared for, the man he might have been, is gone, and she hates who he’s become, and she’s sick of pretending.

Meanwhile, I think that Guy sort of rediscovers his love for her throughout the course of this scene, even if it is in a horrifying way; he’s back in his most fearsome old school season one mode at first, with his threatening “we will be together” – and then, I think Marian’s harshness sort of brings him back. Her saying she loves Robin – again and again, laughing – completely tears down everything that has ever happened between them. Every smile, every touch, every sacrifice he made for her, every single step toward emotion, toward humanity, toward wanting something so much more real and fulfilling than power: she seems to be telling him here that all of that meant nothing, and he cannot handle that reality. So he completely thoughtlessly does what he has to do in order to make her stop.

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And the thing is, I think that the second he stabs her, they’re given one last glimpse of each other, in a twisted way. He completely crumples – he’s devastated, he loves her more than anything in the world and he’s destroyed her in a fit of blind passion. The man he’s become throughout the course of this episode – the one who’s cold and methodical, who follows the Sheriff’s orders and cares for nothing except for gaining power and dismisses humanity as weakness – is gone, and here, instead, is Guy, and he’s horrified and he’s sorry and he loves her.

And while it would have been so easy to have her just look at him with shock, or disappointment, or contempt, instead, we get this remarkable expression on Marian’s face as she looks into his eyes the second before she falls. It’s like what he’s done makes her recognize him again, the man instead of the emotionless monster – there’s almost a savage triumph on her face, an “I was right about you all along.”

The irony of it all is sort of sickeningly intense.

But, well, it’s hard to derive any comfort whatsoever from what went down in this episode, but looking at it this way helps for me. I think that this way, it at least gives them a defined sense of tragedy, instead of dismissing every bit of significance from what happened between them throughout this season. Instead of having to just suddenly buy that none of it meant anything, that Marian really was playing him all along and that his love for her never turned selfless, this acknowledges that they did genuinely connect, and that the progress they made was real – it’s just that the worst possible circumstances came along and completely tore them apart. And, well, as long as I’m allowed to hold onto the idea that their scenes in 2x06 and 2x10 and 2x11 were genuine, then I think I’m going to be okay. –ish.

So here’s to Guy/Marian, a ship so friggin’ spectacular that even the most horrific ending imaginable can’t bring them down! <3

(Anonymous) 2008-01-04 09:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I am never, ever giving up the good ship Guy/Marian as long as I live. I am a little in denial and I don't even care if it was all a dream just as long as I don't have to accept it really happened, but this is a fantastic analysis and I think, after reflection, it is completely true.

As for the taking her by force thing, I think:
1. It was said in the heat of the moment. I don't think that it was something he'd think or say ordinarily.

2. I still think that some of it is just the dregs of brute force lust - he doesn't want to marry her at this point, all that is left is the original stirrings he had to start with - he wants to bed her, not wed her. All through the first series, when Guy was talking to Robin, he kept taunting him with the idea of making love to Marian in Robin's bed... He is, after all, a man, and men do sometimes think with their trousers before their brains.

Maybe I just see things from an extremely perverted point of view, but the rest of your analysis was spot on.

[identity profile] corrielle.livejournal.com 2008-01-07 01:24 am (UTC)(link)
This was a fantastic analysis. I like how you trace the falling apart of their friendship. Worst possible choices indeed... I too choose to believe all of their tender scenes were genuine.

The pictures you chose for their last moment together broke me A LOT, but I'm glad I saw them and read your commentary on them, because all of that happened too fast for me to register and I haven't been able to go back and watch it again since. And it's nice to be able to look at it in a "Wow, that's unbelievably angsty and well-characterized" kind of way rather than a "I need to pick up the pieces of my soul now" kind of way.

[identity profile] elegantwish.livejournal.com 2008-01-07 01:58 am (UTC)(link)
It was really interesting to read. I always believed that Richard and Lucy have done a great work about any specific details for their characters and those are all results, which included your analysis. Thank you for sharing. :)

[identity profile] the-grynne.livejournal.com 2008-03-02 07:39 am (UTC)(link)
Lovely picspam and analysis. I really enjoyed reading it.

It also made me realise there was a shade of Othello/Iago/Desdemona to the Guy/Sheriff/Marian dynamic. I still feel totally gut-stabbed, but there's such a beautiful tragedy to Guy as a character, it almost makes up for it.
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[identity profile] shezan.livejournal.com 2008-12-21 12:29 am (UTC)(link)
Absolutely superb analysis. Yes, that's really the dynamic of the relationship and the arc.

[identity profile] idiot17.livejournal.com 2009-06-09 02:10 am (UTC)(link)
That was an absolutely wonderful analysis! I've been trying to find the logic in these characters since I got sucked into this show and then sucked over the precipice at the end of season 2.

Thank you for making some sense of these characters.

[identity profile] ladykate63.livejournal.com 2009-09-10 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for an absolutely fantastic analysis.

I'm a latecomer to the RH (and G/M) fandom. I have some friends who were really into the show from Season 1 on and have been trying to get me into it, and I had seen bits and pieces (including that scene on YouTube), but I got hooked after one of my RH-loving friends, [livejournal.com profile] tangofiction, got me to watch some clips from Guy's redemption arc in Season 3. She rewatched S2 at the time that I watched it for the first time, and we extensively discussed 2x12-13. Our conclusions were amazingly similar to yours (and [livejournal.com profile] tangofiction also picked up on the thing one of your commenters pointed out -- that Guy's "I will take her by force" is a feeble attempt to convince the Sheriff to spare her life). I also agree that Marian's repetition of "I love Robin Hood" comes off as a dawning realization -- though I also think her laughter was intended to hurt Guy in the worst possible way, and she had good reason to at the time.

One other little detail I wanted to mention is that on the journey to the Holy Land, the Sheriff misses no opportunity to further undermine whatever connection or trust may still exist between G/M -- like in that scene you screencapped where he says, "Give Gizzy a little kiss."

After a S2 marathon, I was genuinely scared to watch the finale. It turned out to be much better than I expected.

I have seen a lot of comments from G/M shippers and Guy fans about how the S2 finale destroyed Guy's character, "reset" him back to being a baddie, invalidated all of their development in S2, etc. I've always wanted to reply but haven't had a chance to put my thoughts together, and now that I've come across your lovely post I can just refer people to it.

By the way, it's interesting that in the end, Marian really does redeem Guy -- while he seems to be completely lost to the possibility of redemption at the start of S3, we ultimately get to see a remorse/redemption arc for him. Of course, part of me still wishes they had accomplished this by less drastic measures and without killing Marian ... but I do love the angst. And as much as I love Lucy and Marian, to be quite honest -- if it was a choice of either Guy or Marian dying at the end of S2, my vote is for Guy to live another season.

Once again, thank you for a beautiful analysis.

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